Two Hand Independence

David Day
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  • #24911
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    We’ve been discussing Harbor Lights on another post and wanted to bring up the subject of “two hand independence”. Concerning the song “What A Time” Bruce says, “This song was a good excuse to work on some independence of the hands (the left hand playing an ostinato while the right hand solos)”.

    For you pianists:
    Can any of you play with “independence of the hands”?
    Can you describe how difficult it is to learn and play?
    What does Bruce mean by ostinato?

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27980
    Avatar of steve8282steve8282
    Participant

    I am curious about this as well. A friend who is a drummer feels its is not such a big thing, drummers are always doing arm independence but not finger independence, is it a big difference?

    #27981
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant

    Hand independence is basically like splitting your brain, where the left hand is doing something rather different than the right. If you’re not used to doing it, it’s a challenging task to learn. For my part, my left hand technique is not really up to snuff, so even if I can split my brain to process two different parts at once, my hands sometimes get in my own way. Drummers are fairly used to this, having all four limbs doing different things at the same time, though I find many drummers are more “interdependent” (i.e., all four limbs interlock into a bigger pattern). Truly independent drumming would be polyrhythmic (multiple rhythms at once).

    Hand independence is really as difficult as the parts each hand is playing. Ragtime or stride piano is one example of hand independence, where the left-hand plays bass notes and chords and the right hand plays melodies. Increasingly difficult is something like traditional jazz organ, or what Bruce does, where the left-hand is playing intricate bass lines and the right hand is soloing.

    Bruce isn’t always improvising basslines like organ players usually do – stuff like “What a Time,” “Sad Moon,” or “King of the Hill” have set patterns or ostinati (plural of ostinato – repeated figure or pattern). What does make Bruce’s hand independence difficult is that he’s often doing polyrhythmic stuff. There’s instances in “King of the Hill” and “Sad Moon” where the left hand is playing eighth notes (two notes per beat) or sixteenth notes (four notes per beat) and the right hand is improvising in triplets. 3-over-4. But essentially, Bruce is only thinking about his right hand because the left-hand patterns are on autopilot. If you listen to the post-Spirit Trail versions of “White Wheeled Limousine,” for instance, the left hand patterns are usually very similar.

    “What a Time” is really influenced by Keith Jarrett’s “The Windup” from the album Belonging. It’s a great tune, and that opening vamp/solo is more interdependent than independent, but still fantastic. Also, Brad Mehldau’s version of “Get Happy” from Anything Goes has this amazing solo piano break in the middle that many will find reminiscent of Bruce. But it’s in 7/4!

    David

    #27982
    Avatar of Dave B.Dave B.
    Participant

    I remember a SOLID Daily Dose that was a recording of Bruce at a show (solo perhaps?), demonstrating how he conceived his style of two-handed independence.

    Any chance you can run that again Si?? It’s still one of my all time favorites for a Daily Dose….

    #27983
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    What a great response from DavidR! I have so many more questions to ask, but I don’t know where to begin.

    What do you mean by 3 over 4? Can Bruce really play 4 notes per beat with his left hand? :?:

    Fill us in with more details! I know there are more pianists out there. Let us here from you too! We need some elightment on this subject! ❗

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27984
    Avatar of VictorVictor
    Participant

    Neato

    DavidR has been a fount of knowledge. Thanks!

    Two-handed independence has always seemed to me like patting your head and rubbing your stomach at the same time — to two distinct rhythmic patterns! I can’t imagine pulling it off.

    #27985
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant

    Sixteeneth notes aren’t really that difficult. It all depends on the speed or tempo. The transcription of the solo piano ending of “Sad Moon” is notated in sixteenth-notes (four notes per beat). I’ll try a very bad internet diagram here. Top line is the quarter notes, or beats. Second line is right hand in triplets (normally counted one-trip-let, two-trip-let, etc). Bottom line is left hand in sixteenths (one-ee-and-uh, two-ee-and-uh, etc).

    Code:
    1 2 3 4
    1 trip- let 2 trip- let 3 trip- let 4 trip- let
    1 ee and uh 2 ee and uh 3 ee and uh 4 ee and uh

    David

    #27986
    Avatar of AllisaAllisa
    Participant
    Code:
    1 trip- let 2 trip- let 3 trip- let 4 trip- let

    aka: 1 lol- ly, 2 lol- ly :)

    #27987
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant
    DavidR wrote:
    Sixteeneth notes aren’t really that difficult. It all depends on the speed or tempo. The transcription of the solo piano ending of “Sad Moon” is notated in sixteenth-notes (four notes per beat). I’ll try a very bad internet diagram here. Top line is the quarter notes, or beats. Second line is right hand in triplets (normally counted one-trip-let, two-trip-let, etc). Bottom line is left hand in sixteenths (one-ee-and-uh, two-ee-and-uh, etc).

    Code:
    1 2 3 4
    1 trip- let 2 trip- let 3 trip- let 4 trip- let
    1 ee and uh 2 ee and uh 3 ee and uh 4 ee and uh

    David

    Is the right hand in 3/4 time and the left hand in 4/4 time?

    On the left hand:
    Is 1, 2, 3, 4 usually the same note?
    Are all the ee(s) usually the same note?
    Are all the and(s) usualy the same note?
    Are all the uh(s) usually the same note?

    This is interesting! Thanks for the details and putting up with my questions!

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27988
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    Waiting on DavidR’s (one of the 4 Ds!) reply with great anticipation! Kyle please join in on this! I know there are other pianists out their also! We want to hear from you! ❗

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27989
    Avatar of PianoManKDPianoManKD
    Participant
    David Day wrote:
    For you pianists:
    Can any of you play with “independence of the hands”?
    Can you describe how difficult it is to learn and play?
    What does Bruce mean by ostinato?

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    Hey

    I’ve been a pianist for about 16 years now…Currently studying music in college! Independence of the hands is something very special quality to have. I can do a little of it but it has taken some serious time to master….You basically start with your left hand, which is your “band”….You pick a chord cadence or structure and keep playing that over and over until your sick of it and it’s in your brain imprinted….

    Then, in the key that your chords are in for the left hand, take one or two notes and dabble on just those two notes with your right hand over and over so u start with simple note phrases on top of what your doing on the left hand….After working on that for weeks you’ll begin to free your mind while you play it….

    It takes a lot of practice to achieve but it’s worth it….

    As for ostinato…It’s just another way of telling you how to play something, like adagio, rubato, allegro, etc….

    Hope this helps some of you!

    Kyle

    #27990
    Avatar of zncstrzncstr
    Participant

    i am drummer not a pianist but a dabble with the ivories.

    druumers have it easy-syncopation with 4 limbs
    pianists can have 10 different things going on, not to mention working the pedals

    #27991
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant
    Quote:
    Is the right hand in 3/4 time and the left hand in 4/4 time?

    On the left hand:
    Is 1, 2, 3, 4 usually the same note?
    Are all the ee(s) usually the same note?
    Are all the and(s) usualy the same note?
    Are all the uh(s) usually the same note?

    This is a rhythmic diagram – has nothing to do with pitch or harmony. The beats and all their subdivisions (ees, ands, uhs, and triplets) can be different notes, or not. That’s not exactly the point here. “Spider Fingers” is hand independence in a way too, with the left hand playing sixteenth-notes all on one note, and the right hand playing that “Sex Machine”-inspired riff.

    Both hands are in 4/4 – they just divide the beats differently. Here’s how to do it yourself:
    – With your foot (or with a metronome, if you have one), tap out quarter notes (1, 2, 3, 4)
    – With your hands, tap three equally-spaced times in the space of a quarter note. Those are triplets.
    – With your hands, tap four equally-spaced times in the space of a quarter-note. Those are sixteenths.
    – HAND INDEPENDENCE: left hand taps sixteenths, right hand taps triplets (and/or vice versa).

    And just to clarify one of Kyle’s points, ostinato does not define or determine how one plays something. Allegro, rubato, etc. are all tempo markings. Ostinato are structural; “any clearly defined melodic or rhythmic pattern that is repeated persistently.”

    Kyle’s suggestion on how to practice hand independence is the same way Bruce advises others to practice it.

    David

    #27992
    Avatar of PianoManKDPianoManKD
    Participant

    ostinato is telling u what to repeat….so, in a way, it is telling u how to play it….you must have misunderstood what i typed….sorry

    i know what it means though

    kyle

    #27993
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant
    DavidR wrote:
    This is a rhythmic diagram – has nothing to do with pitch or harmony. The beats and all their subdivisions (ees, ands, uhs, and triplets) can be different notes, or not. That’s not exactly the point here. “Spider Fingers” is hand independence in a way too, with the left hand playing sixteenth-notes all on one note, and the right hand playing that “Sex Machine”-inspired riff. Both hands are in 4/4 – they just divide the beats differently. David

    Wow! I got it!

    On the right hand:
    Are the “trip lets” generally on the off beat?
    The 1, 2 3 & 4 on beat?

    I don’t play piano, but happen to have one I inherited. I tried the left hand of the intro to Spider Fingers today. One note, four notes per beat with a slow, I mean a very slow, 4/4 tempo and guess what? I can’t do it! It’s only one note! ❗ 😆

    Thanks for answering my questions. Please keep them coming!

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27994
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant
    PianoManKD wrote:
    You basically start with your left hand, which is your “band”….You pick a chord cadence or structure and keep playing that over and over until your sick of it and it’s in your brain imprinted….

    Then, in the key that your chords are in for the left hand, take one or two notes and dabble on just those two notes with your right hand over and over so u start with simple note phrases on top of what your doing on the left hand….After working on that for weeks you’ll begin to free your mind while you play it….

    It takes a lot of practice to achieve but it’s worth it….
    Hope this helps some of you!
    Kyle

    You’ve been playing for 16 years, how long did it take for you to be able to do it?

    I don’t see how it could “free your mind”. Seems like a lot of concentration going on?

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27995
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant
    Quote:
    On the right hand:
    Are the “trip lets” generally on the off beat?
    The 1, 2 3 & 4 on beat?

    Yes – 1 2 3 4 are the beats in a bar of four. Everything else are what are called subdivisions – units of rhythm that divide the beats (into 2, 3, 4, whatever).

    As for how long it takes to learn hand independence… it depends on the amount of practice you put into it. Not many pianists are trained off the bat in such strict hand independence, and certainly not in improvising that way. For me, it’s something I consistently work at improving, though I haven’t sat down and specifically decided to perfect it since I bought Spirit Trail. :)

    And if I may interpret what Kyle stated above again (don’t want to put words into your mouth), about freeing your mind – the way I perceive it and have practiced hand independence is that one hand (for me, the ostinato… usually the left hand) has to become second nature, that instead of thinking about both hands, I’m only thinking about the hand that is improvising the melody or solo. To clarify, say I’m soloing over that left-hand figure from “King of the Hill,” the way it works best is if my left-hand is on autopilot with that pattern, and I’m only really seriously thinking about my right hand.

    David

    #27996
    Avatar of Si TwiningSi Twining
    Keymaster

    Just to throw out a little teaser – you’ll soon be able to hear some of David’s playing on the upcoming Caesar Salad tribute to Bruce!

    Within a couple of months, I’d expect…

    #27997
    Avatar of PianoManKDPianoManKD
    Participant

    Tell you what…Si how about I write a two handed independant song for the tribute CD and then people can understand what I’m talking about?

    Kyle

    #27998
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant
    PianoManKD wrote:
    Tell you what…Si how about I write a two handed independant song for the tribute CD and then people can understand what I’m talking about?

    Kyle

    That would be great! What would you call it?

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27999
    Avatar of Si TwiningSi Twining
    Keymaster
    PianoManKD wrote:
    Tell you what…Si how about I write a two handed independant song for the tribute CD and then people can understand what I’m talking about?

    Kyle

    Shop’s closed for the CD, I’m afraid, Kyle, but I’m more than happy to put it up as a dose!

    #28000
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant
    si_twining wrote:
    Just to throw out a little teaser – you’ll soon be able to hear some of David’s playing on the upcoming Caesar Salad tribute to Bruce!

    Within a couple of months, I’d expect…

    Wow DavidR! You da man! ❗

    More questions are soon coming, but want to practice my one note left hand Spider Finger intro a little more. 😆

    I’m getting good! ❗ 😆 Is there a baby Bruuuce in the making? :?: 😆

    Stayed tuned!

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #28001
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    I got it! It’s not that good, but I got it! ❗ 😆

    I have a problem though! I can only do it for 3 or 4 measures before my fingers, wrist & forearms are completely exhausted! ❗ 😆 Not only does it take a tremendous amount of concentration, but it will wear you out physically too! ❗

    As a guitar player, we do a bit of two hand independence when we play lead with one hand and picking patterns with the other. I understand the “split your brain in half” part, but the piano is so much more difficult! ❗ I got to hand it (get it? 😆 ) to you pianists! It’s tough!

    I have a challenging question for you pianist. Something that is going to take some thought. Something that doesn’t have to do with theory or fundamentals.

    Compare & contrast the two hand independence on “King of the Hill” vs “Circus on the Moon”. :?: Is there a difference? :?: What is the difference if any? :?:

    I know I’m “pushing the envelope” by asking you guys that question, but I find what you are saying very interesting! ❗ I know there are others that find it interesting too! ❗

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #28002
    Avatar of daverichdaverich
    Participant

    two handed independance isn’t so hard, in fact i would say most piano playing of any standard requires it.

    Other wise it’d be like banging out chords in a rhythmic pattern with the melody.

    Playing a 5/8 over a 3/4 is difficult though – possible but difficult. – *EDIT* – just tried it, it’s actually pretty easy.

    What I find difficult, in fact impossible right now,- is those really quick runs up and down the entire keyboard – Just can’t bloody pull that off.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

    #28003
    Avatar of Erin G.Erin G.
    Participant

    I have to say, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this thread. =) It’s neat to read the perspective of other musicians on this subject. Two hand independence is one of my favorite techniques to practice–it’s challenging, but not the awful kind of challenging that makes you want to toss the baby grand out the window. Now–those full keyboard runs Dave R. mentioned…that’s another story (but man, when you finally get one all the way through–Woohoo!!!). I’m recovering from a bum right hand and wrist and working on those runs really helps with the strength and agility!

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