Musical State Of The Union

rdiakun

Bruce Hornsby setlists, concerts, downloads Forums General chat Musical State Of The Union

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  • #24895
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    Si’s note: extra kudos earned by replying to this topic!

    Here’s an interesting topic to throw out for discussion…

    I was on the phone the other night and the subject of the 2007 Grammys came up. The state of pop music in 2007, it was determined, is not all that hot.

    Nowhere out there is an artist that defines the music of the day, or gives direction or meaning to a generation the way that some have in the past. Is there anyone out there that is willing or able to so totally own this cultural medium in a way that all will follow? Benny Goodman shook a generation with his unrepentant swing sound. Frank Sinatra owned his day. Elvis mounted a full-scale musical assault on the virtue of every young woman alive in the late 50s. The Beatles took us on several direction-changing and redefining rides in their 7 year run at the top. The Bee Gees spent a few years letting us know that it was ok to dance your troubles away. Michael Jackson defined the mid-80s, and Madonna told girls that it was not only acceptable but damned cool to be a real person with real thoughts and desires. Since then, it doesn’t seem that there’s been a defining force to be reckoned with in the same way. There are various “scenes” going on, but nothing that has really been able to take generational ownership.

    Heck, there isn’t even anyone with the nad to write lyrics like Prince’s “I’m not your lover. I’m not your friend. I am something that youll never comprehend. No need 2 worry. No need 2 cry. I’m your messiah and you’re the reason why.” or Pete Townshend’s “His eyes are the eyes that transmit all they know, sparkle warm crystalline glances to show he is your leader, he is your guide. On the amazing journey together you’ll ride.” Nobody wants to be a leader these days, even the politicians running our countries. I guess what made Goodman and Elvis and The Beatles and Jackson what they were was that they had the nad to step up and say, “come on, this way…” and have people go with them.

    There was a lot of great soul music in the 70s, and rock and roll found its’ maturity as “rock” about the same time. Punk had its’ day and turned into new wave or something like that. And there was the grunge thing, which had a couple of years. Alternative rock produced some wonderful songs, but it never really took the way adherants had hoped it would. Rap, or hip-hop, has been as close to “the sound of a generation” as you might get, but it feels like its’ run is about done. Each of those movements has had its’ excellent moments, but there were so few real leaders could really push the scene beyond flavor of the month status. What does the 21st century have to offer us? Is pop music as we knew it dead? To quote Walter Cronkite after Neil Armstrong had done his moonwalk, “where do we go from here?”

    There are fine performers, as evidenced by that amazing performance of James Brown’s “It’s A Man’s, Man’s World” that Christina Aguilera put on during the Grammys. There always have been great performers. It just seems like the writers, the people who really have something important to say, just aren’t there. Has “American Idol” done to music what reality shows have done to television drama, going for quick, cheap entertainment over quality and depth? It seems like the richness and depth of what was happening during periods like the late-60s and 70s, when the record companies let the artists call the shots because they were still selling like hotcakes, is gone. When sales started to flag, the lunatics were no longer in charge of the asylum. Nurse Ratched came in and made everyone take their pills, and the ward has only had brief moments since. Only the select few retained the right to have total control of their artwork.

    Why is this, assuming you agree with my supposition that it actually is? It’s been said that radio is so fragmented these days that it no longer serves as the cultural centerpiece that it once did. The broadcast industry counters this, and rightly so, by pointing out how much more diversity there is in the types of music being offered out. Could it be that there are too many choices, and none of them is of sufficient quality that it becomes a dominant rallying point? Or, are we just going through a phase right now where there isn’t the writing talent that there maybe once was? Or am I just seeing this through the eyes of someone who is no longer in the prime demographic that the music industry is targeting, and as such, I just don’t “get it” the way I did when I was younger?

    I think the paucity of major creative forces in rock music was eloquently pointed out at the ’07 Grammys when The Red Hot Chili Peppers were accepting an award for Best Rock Album, and drummer Chad Smith suggested that “you kids go out there and start a rock band… we need more rock bands.” When did they stop jammin’ at Joe’s garage? Why?

    OK…. that should be enough food for thought to seed a good discussion. As Jim Rome says on his sports talk show after he puts out some take….. “reaaaaaaaction”

    Rich Diakun

    #27814
    Avatar of Si TwiningSi Twining
    Keymaster

    Good to have the legend that is Rich Diakun on this site…

    I think the problem – at least here in the UK – is the culture of “get famous quick”.

    It is no longer anyone’s ambition, or intention, to make a long term impression on the music industry. The aim now is to take what you can, as quickly as you can, and then run before you are twigged.

    Every one of the icons that you mention – Goodman, Sinatra, Jackson, Elvis, even the Bee Gees – are all covered these days. Because that’s the easy way to do it. When one can make a success of it, why not everybody else?

    I put the blame on several outlets:

    i. American Idol (or, here in the UK, Pop Idol). Watch any edition and you’ll hear at least one of the above artists covered every week. The winner will be a pretty looking thing, as voted for by the public, who by extension have just created a media monster with mass appeal. Ironically, those I know who would be well placed to go far in such a *talent* content (on talent alone) refuse to enter as a point of principle. Funny you should mention reality TV – Big Brother is the perfect example of the “get famous quick” culture. The freakier, the better, and they have a “career” waiting for them in no time.

    ii. The internet. Yup – everybody’s 15 megabytes of fame can be broadcast to the world. In the days of You Tube and MySpace, any socially rejected overweight kid with a light sabre, or guy in a Tron suit, can become a worldwide icon. It’s so easy to do, and drains the ambition out of anyone with half a brain (and no more) who realises this.

    iii. Apathy. When I was growing up, I wanted to be like the person that I admired, whether that was a family member, a footballer or a musician. I respected their talent, and aspired to be like them. Ask a kid now what they want to be, and don’t be surprised at how many answer with one word – “famous”. Not a particular career, or anything requiring a modicum of talent or effort. When kids today grow up seeing Paris Hilton breezing through life without any of the above, you have to wonder what is meant to motivate them.

    iv. Current trends. Those who can rise above that, with the required work ethic, are not assured of a future. The music industry is tumbling, headlong, into decline. An exquisitely produced CD is now replaced by a polyphonic ringtone on the latest Nokia. Why? – it’s easy to produce, and too easy to download. What used to be the “Top 40” in the UK now caters for this when assessing the week’s most popular sales.

    Nowhere are you likely to find an artist of the day, unless they produce something so different, and so inspiring, that it snaps today’s popular music out of its apathy. As long as it’s so easy to continue putting out what constitutes a huge money-making success, that’s not likely to happen.

    There are large bodies of fans who still exhibit a passion for their music of choice, and they will continue to do so… and so rely on acts of yesteryear… the Beatles, Elvis, the Grateful Dead, Nirvana, Motown…

    #27815
    Avatar of tykettotyketto
    Participant

    SI has mainly hit it all on the head here. To that though, I’m going to add 3 more things.

    v. “Pop then ain’t what pop is now.” Thanks to modern sociality what was considered pop in earlier times isn’t what pop is now. In a sense it is, and history repeats itself, but pop in its true sense is all but gone. In the past 15 – 25 years, true Pop has been replaced by bubblegum pop. Catchy lyrics that appeal to teens that get constant play rotation (read: every 30 minutes to an hour) on a radio station. Videos with the same theme (cars, women, choreographed dancing) with the same rotation. Once that flooded the airwaves, there was no room left for true pop. Perfect example: compare the airplay of Crowded House back in the mid-late 80s to say, N’Sync or the Backstreet Boys from 7 years ago. Big difference, but one was based on image, while the other was based on artistry. Without a good strong following (like what U2 has), it is hard to stay in the game for a long time. That’s what makes it hard for CH, Bruce, and others who have relied on their talent to get any mainstream airplay. Nowadays, it doesn’t take talent to make music, when all you would need is something produced. History provides the proof of that. The same idea that was used to create the Monkees was the same idea that produced New Kids on the Block, that was the same for Backstreet Boys, that was for N’Sync.

    vi. IP. Thank Metallica for this. with the whole Napster thing that went on with them, the record labels found another way to make money, and that is all that they are after now. Ottmar Liebert (flamenco guitarist) wrote in his blog a few years ago, that he remembers walking into RCA records one day, and having lunch with the company president. The president was a musician himself. Nowadays, you would never find the CEO there, and he isn’t a musician. It is a sad state of affairs when people running the record companies have no experience in the music industry, where previously, they knew it, because they played themselves. Nowadays, Record Companies (read: those under the RIAA) care about intellectual property. If you make music under their label, they will make sure that they own the music, not the musician, even if the musician wrote it themselves. When royalties come in, while the musician gets the fame, the labels get the money. When the musician dies, the royalties still go to the label. They can do anything they want with the music, even sell it. Two good cases in point: Apple records auctioning the Beatles recordings. Paul McCartney wrote a good number of those. Who won the auction? Michael Jackson.

    EMI recently announced that they are looking at sell their entire collection as MP3s, without any copyright protections. With the number of labels EMI has, do you think those artists are going to get anything from them? No, because EMI owns the music. Who would want to work in a world where one doesn’t own what they’ve spent their time and energy to create? That is why some musicians have mainly started their own, and have more of a cult following. They may be smaller in popularity now because they aren’t totally mainstream, but it does give them the creative freedom to do what they want to do, plus they own the material they create.

    vii. Purpose and passion. The above kind of deflates the meaning and purpose of wanting to do that in today’s world. Once again, unless you have a major following (U2, Michael Jackson, Madonna, etc), you’re really not going to last long, unless you play the game that the companies-that-be direct you to. With that following, and sales of their music still ranking up in the millions, and still occurring, musicians can still carry on their passion, like caring for children (Jackson), goodwill (Bono), empowerment (Madonna), and the like. With those being materialistic and thinking only of themselves, there really is no purpose that musicians have; no making a difference.

    When you have things that appear more materialistic, the scenes change, and lost meaning, it’s tough to try to make it in this industry. It’s a fun job, yes, but it is still a job. It’s more like sales and advertising. If you can’t keep up with the Joneses and sell yourself, you’re never going to get ahead. And what generally happens to a poor performing salesman?

    Sad state of affairs, the music industry is today.

    BL.

    #27816
    Avatar of PianoManKDPianoManKD
    Participant

    When Si spoke about the people such as the Bee Gees getting covered like crazy it spawned in my head Phil Collins. Here’s a guy who, in my book, is the greatest musician in the world (sorry Bruuuce fans, but, Phil is the man)….This guy has got it and does it all….Drums, sings, guitar, keys, horns, bass….And he excels at every single of them….An album he made called Both Sides is his finest work in my opinion. Why? Because he played every single instrument on there, did all the arranging, all the artwork, all the singing, all the legal work, etc….The songs are brilliant and the fact that you feel like you are inside Phil when you listen to the songs from that album just make it that much better.

    When I heard that Bone Thugz N Harmony were taking Phil’s Take Me Home song and creating a rap version of it, I damn near wanted to start a protest outside the “bonez” studios….People banking huge from covering other artists who actually used the definition of what art is to create their own song, shouldn’t be allowed any sort of fame whatsoever…

    Here’s some no talents out there that deserve nothing in the music biz:
    Justin Timberlake
    Christina Aguilera
    Backstreet Boys
    N Sync
    Britney Spears

    I think you get my drift….

    People that could run circles around those 5 “musicians”:
    Well, too many to name….

    Most of the bands today just plain suck. It’s all four chord pop music that attracts anyone that wants to feel sorry for themselves or to get over a breakup. Listen guys, if you want to make am illion, write a song about a loved one you lost or an ex girlfriend, write only 4 chords over it, write an extremely simple melody, and then we’ll have a hit.

    The point I’m trying to make is, the musicians today take what they do for granted in a sense that those back in the 70’s and 80’s played and tried their asses off to get where they got (Genesis, Yes, Kansas, Bruuce even, etc.)

    When The Police opened the grammy’s i was so pumped (I even bought tickets to a show in the summer for their reunion tour)…They showed musicianship, what true music is, and then Jaimie Foxx walked out and started speaking like he was talking to a bunch of hoodlum teenagers and it suddenly got a bit darker in the room of the grammy’s….

    It’s absolutely shameful the respect that real musicians get these days and it’s a shame of what the music industry has become.

    OK, enough venting for now. I’m not sure if I stayed on the topic of this thread but I felt I had to get this out somewhere and somehow.

    Peace.

    Kyle :)

    #27817
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant

    First, I want to take issue with some of Kyle’s “5 artists who deserve nothing in the music biz.” I have to give credit where credit is due. Justin Timberlake has talent. Some of his songs are substandard, but if you let him loose on a halfway decent song (his last two singles, “What Goes Around Comes Around” and “My Love”) the guy can sing them well. He’s also competent on keyboards, and beatboxes pretty well too. Christina can sing – she’s just lacking taste. I really hope “Ain’t No Other Man” foreshadows things to come for her – there’s hints, underneath all the melisma, of a really good singer in the making.

    Are we debating the state of music or the state of the music industry? They’re two mightily different beasts. I think music and musical development is quite healthy – there’s a lot of great artists still cranking out the tunes (Tom Waits, Paul Simon, Radiohead, etc). Ever since the British Invasion, scenes have been fracturing and splintering left and right that it’s been hard to coalesce artistic society under the umbrella of one artist. And I don’t know that it’s necessary for someone to unite an audience the way the Beatles did. There’s so much music out there to be heard, and so much still being created that it’s hard to fight over the din. The closest thing this year might have been Gnarls Barkley’s “Crazy.”

    MySpace and YouTube are sort of a double-edged sword: anybody with the right amount of money can acquire the gear and ability to record at home and upload it to those sites. That said, I’ve been added by groups on MySpace I’d never otherwise here because budgets prohibit them from disseminating their music outside their area. I don’t have the dough to cross the pond – sorry, Si! – and there’s a ton of British and European artists I’ve discovered through MySpace that I wouldn’t have even thought to have sought out.

    Sure, there’s a lot of crap as well. Which brings me to the subject of the gatekeepers, critics, and the music media. A lot has been made that anyone with a pair of ears and a computer can become a music critic, thanks to blogging. No need for a journalism degree, proper grammar, or even discerning musical knowledge – just fire up a browser window and go. Again, while this is true, the positive side of it is that talented, intelligent listeners can now access the same amount of music as a critic, and share their observations with whoever cares to listen. For all the little fanboys regurgitating press releases and Pitchfork headlines, there’s a community of aficionados and musicians bantering about via cross-linked essays. Yes, I’m a blogger too, as well as a musician and composer.

    The industry, as it stands, is a dinosaur. The major labels are still too interested in bandwagon-jumping to nurture artistic growth, and there’s this Chicken Little sentiment about downloading and album sales that just isn’t true. Artists have always made the majority of their money through touring and royalties (if they weren’t stupid enough to sign them away), and frankly, most illegal downloads aren’t stolen sales. A lot of the CDs my friends and I have ripped and burned in our lives are things we never would have thought to have bought in the first place. I relish the ability to listen to a disc before I decide to buy it, instead of dropping twenty bucks on a CD I’ll listen to once, or for one or two tracks. If I like it, I’ll buy it. If not, no harm, no foul. It’s akin to banning the test-driving of cars because someone might not return to the dealership.

    But the industry is fracturing too – there are so many indie labels that cultivate their own aesthetic (I’m thinking Ninja Tune or Warp or Arts & Crafts), and major label deals have been outed as not the lucrative dreams they once were. And with the rise in recording technology, it’s easy to press one’s own CD and sell it on your gigs. No middlemen required.

    So while the industry needs to change lest it become extinct, I don’t think we need to worry about the state of music itself. It’s just fine.

    {Phew, I feel better now.}

    David

    #27818
    Avatar of trenttrent
    Participant

    There is a new documentary out now that deals with these exact issues called “Before the Music Dies”. Given some of the other names involved in the production (Branford Marsalis, Bonnie Raitt, Eric Clapton…) , I’m surprised Bruce wasn’t involved.

    Here’s a clip from the picture that many of you will find interesting (though not surprising) that shows the process of a teen pop song from its creation to the making of a music video.

    http://www.beforethemusicdies.com/blog/ … -pop-star/

    You can see more about the DVD on amazon:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000KGGP8U

    #27819
    Avatar of goavesgoaves
    Participant

    The Music World needs help

    From reading everyones comments, I have to agree with most of you. The music industry machine has produced some really lame stuff as of late. Current and upcoming artists cannot stand out like Elton John, Billy Joel, Don Henley, and many other icons of the decade. Each one of those people has produced hits that are staples of the music industry and many artists try to imitate them in some way.

    The new millenium has been full of one hit wonders and consistency in the business is near extinction. Older singers and groups like U2 and Bob Dylan have withstood the test of time. They can still produce top hit songs even long after their defining era. The music industry needs more consistency and the direction they are heading does not show any signs of improvement.

    I have to agree with others comments about how people like Brittany Spears and Justin Timberlake represent everything that is wrong with music. I also agree that Phil Collins is the man and does not get the proper recognition he deserves in the music world. His work is some of the best stuff that ever came out of the industry.

    The bottom line is we need more people like Phil Collins that are the total package. I have almost completely turned off most new music since 1999. Their is too much junk that record companies produce every year. The Grammys this year were a disaster, with the exception of the Police reunion and Stevie Wonder and Tony Bennett winning. That was definitely awesome.

    As for Bruce, he has also withstood the test of time. The music world needs to begin to appreciate his work as well. I remember going out to circuit city and best buy in search of the intersections box set the first day it came out. Noone carried it in their stores. When I asked employees if they had it in stock, they gave me a crazy look. Its too bad my generation has yet to embrace his music.

    #27820
    Avatar of cgessnercgessner
    Participant

    State of Music 2007 — reaction

    There have been a lot of great comments posted, but for what’s it worth, I’ll post my two cents worth as well:

    For starters, back when I was growing up, your music came from you in just a few places. The radio ruled the day back in the 50s, 60s, and even 70s. Also, from a television standpoint (at least in the USA), your media came at you from only three major stations: NBC, ABC, and CBS. Ed Sullivan broke acts back in his day, as did Dick Clark on American Bandstand. Those days ended with MTV. What started off a great concept has turned into absolute trash. When does MTV even show videos anymore. It’s all about “Real World” this and that, and not about what the call letters stand for…Music Television!!

    At about the same time, you had cable expand from three stations to hundreds. As Bruce Springsteen has so aptly put on vinyl…..57 Channels and Nothing on!! When you thrown the 1990s and current day into the mix and add the Internet piece, it’s no wonder that nothing can stand out anymore….your media comes at you from too many different places. While it’s great that the consumer has more choices, it also hampers the ability for ONE type of music to stand out and take over. While I would argue that quality usually finds its place; you cannot argue that’s because of the items listed above, it’s much more difficult to do so.

    Second….from my standpoint, back in the 60s and 70s, artists that were trying to make it big had new songs and albums coming out every year!! Look at Elton John, Billy Joel, the Beatles, Stones, Who, etc… You could count on new material every year and a tour to follow. While you could argue that artists could suffer burnout; the fact is it allowed the consumer to never forget about the artist, as we could continually look forward to new music from artists that were now well established. You couldn’t escape these artists on the radio if you tried…like it or not. In today’s world, most artists come out with a new album 2-3 years apart. For example….Maroon 5. How long has it been already since their debut CD? Here’s a band that had a successful debut CD and where’s the follow-up? How long will it take? By now, you probably get my point on this one.

    Third….we’re living in an “alone” society today. Think about it. Kids come home from school and what do they do: go straight to the XBox or Playstation. Sure, they might be playing with someone, but for the most part, their sitting in front of a box, not talking, and just acting like a drone being mind-controlled by the latest version of Madden football. The same argument could be made for the iPod and other MP3 devices. Think about it…you go to the iTunes Music Store, you sit hook up your iPod, and download music…..alone…YOU….at your computer. Back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, everybody shared music as well (no DRM involved either). We all went to the local music store, stocked up on 45s, TALKED AND DISCUSSED music, and shared it. How many of you remember ripping songs to blank cassettes? The same as today. The only difference is that we did it together because the lack of technology at the time forced us to.

    If we ever want to see a day like the days that Rich suggests, where people like Frank Sinatra, Elton John, and someone else come to the forefront of the music scene, the music companies need to get behind the artists they’re plugging. The “get rich quick” sceme and “squeeze them dry before the next-big-thing-comes-along” philosophy has got to go. And let’s not forget the role that people like TicketMaster, LiveNation, and others play in all of this and who gets to even get heard on the radio. I don’t know about you, but where I live, AM radio died along time ago. It’s all about “talk” now. Music hasn’t been heard from in a long time. FM Radio? I can count on ONE finger the quality stations that I can count on in my hometown. It’s disgusting really. AM and FM radio….think about that scene today.

    Today the emphasis is on YOU. You have to find the music. You have to market yourself as a musician. YOU have to take the time to find the quality. No one is going to just showcase it for you. And as long as YOU the public are willing to purchase crap and put so-called artists up on a pedestal that you know won’t stand the test of time (insert sub-standard artist name here….), things won’t change. The last time I looked, American Idol cranked out mediocre musicians, not “idols” as they would put it.

    Thanks for the forum and discussion….and I need to watch the video that was suggested “Before the Music Died”….from what I’ve heard from several, it’s a great piece.

    #27821
    Avatar of rabjohnsrabjohns
    Participant

    Get REAL Here!!!

    OK. Rose colored glasses away. All we have to deal with now is pre-senile decay.

    Im listening to the radio on the internet as I type this (aside: I cant use apostrophes in firefox, its not because Im illiterate). Im listening to the greatest radio station in the world. Ive just had Springsteens “Goin Down” and now Ive got “Everybody wants to rule the world” (Tears for Fears) . Now Sheryl Crowe “Cant cry anymore”.

    The world has gotten so big and diverse, and yes I agree that the current state of music played on so-called commercial FM radio (or the BBC in the UK) is appalling. (Now its “Runaway” by Bonnie Raitt)

    But…

    Search your memories (or look it up on the internet). Most of the (Now U2 – Window in the Skies) “hit parade” was crap when all the quoted heroes were initially active (Now its the WHO – “Join Together”) – most werent what you could rate as commercial successes although folks like you and me heard them and bought the albums (in the UK almost exclusively thanks to the late, and much loved John Peel, but also thanks to Bob Harris, Annie Nightingale, Mike Raven etc)

    (Break for Dinner)

    (Now, Stevie Ray Vaughn “Pride and Joy”)

    Anyway,where was I?

    (Sorry, got distracted by Bruce Cockburns “Last night of the world”)

    Oh, yeah – Its all out there, you just have to look for it, and not get freaked that not all the stations are playing your tunes.

    (Dave Mathews Band “Everyday”)

    Grammys? Looking past the obvious marketing crap, Look at who was nominated, (more important than who actually got -) I saw Bruce, Bela Fleck, George Benson, Chick Corea, Ricky Skaggs, the Police etc….. Thatll do pig…thatll do…

    Plus, music is still alive and well, there are some fantastic new bands out there (true, not hitting the top 40) and (pause for ELP “From the beginning”) some great soloists too. As usual, it will be some time before the marketing eejits realise the long-term potential of true talent as opposed to the fast buck, but thats always been the way.

    Nil desperandum
    Nil illigitimi carborundum

    By the way, its easier to chill when you’re listening to the Tide (http://www.tideradio.com) and its fantastic new sister station (New Music Channel) – restores your faith in humanity.

    (Diamonds on the soles of her shoes -Paul Simon)

    Try it – hook your PC up to decent stereo system – dial up the tide, and dance, man, dance….

    #27822
    Avatar of treahtreah
    Participant

    This is a very thought-provoking topic. Many of you have already addressed views about the music industry that are similar to my own. Having said that, here is my contribution:

    I think the easy availability of music (at least in the US) today has made many people take it for granted. Someone can get the latest release or order the CD online with just a click of the mouse. Don’t get me wrong, I love Amazon, but the excitement of going into a record store and perusing the displays to see what treasures you could unearth is all but lost. Gone is the time when you stood in the aisle of the store with the two albums you HAD to have, fiercely debating with yourself over which one to leave behind because of shortness of funds. This dilemma made the acquisition of the chosen record all the sweeter.

    Along this same line, I think the MP3 format has also taken something away from music. Unwrapping the cellophane from the record, tape or CD still causes me to feel as if I were opening a wonderful gift. Once the music was unwrapped, you opened it up to find there were usually lyrics and liner notes to read while you were listening to your new music. A digital booklet just isn’t the same.

    Variety in mainstream music is something else that has fallen by the wayside. I remember when I could hear country, R&B, rock and pop music on one radio station. Now, with a few notable exceptions, radio stations play only one type of music. To (very) loosely quote Bruce “Top 40 radio today is all about a good singer and a catchy song.”
    Unfortunately, that is pretty much all you hear on the radio these days.

    Please don’t get me wrong, I appreciate some aspects of the modern advancement in the music industry, but at the same time, I feel these advancements has taken away the “specialness” music used to have in many people’s lives.

    Jackie

    #27823
    Avatar of peteatsetipeteatseti
    Participant

    Style over content

    Hello Everyone,

    Just thought I’d add that it seems to me that we are dealing with a product and not a skill. Most of the aforementioned artists had a love of music of playing their instrument rather than an immediate desire for fame. I think the music industry has latched-on to the fact that an average sample of people want to hear a formulaic song that covers the bases and conforms to the norm. No one would like Bach for instance if there wasn’t an investment in the form: art requires and investment both ways. My love of Bruce Hornsby (his piano playing that is) is because he extends the craft. It’s what he gives to me in the form of my own development. Presumably it is this foundation that has a side-effect of then appealing to the masses but without the searching from the audience, we have stagnation. Anyway, just my four-penneth worth and I hope I haven’t repeated what has already been said

    Lets all tickle the ivories or pluck the strings for what it is in itself

    Pete

    #27824
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    Maybe what I was shooting for was not so much along the lines of “does today’s music suck?” or “is there anyone out there who’s as good as back in the day?” but “is there anyone out there who is making music important to the latest generation?” I think we can all agree that the initially cited cases (Benny Goodman, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, The Bee Gees, Michael Jackson, and Madonna) all struck a chord with a significant enough segment of the youth of their time such that it made the listening to and the purchase of (whether it be albums or concert tickets or t-shirts or music books or whatever) music very important to them as they determined who and what they would be. In that vein, I dismiss the recent Brittney Spears and boy band phenomena, as we’ve always had the bubblegum scene aimed at “tweens”, which they quickly grow out of (i.e. The Archies, Banana Splits, Tiffany, Debbie Gibson, etc.). I see that music more as a toy than a legitimate artistic force in one’s life. Now THERES a sicsussion that would be fun — bubblegum “tween” music: art or toy?

    On a scale a bit lower than those, I could cite a few other examples where this importance reared its’ head. In the early 70s, Chicago made it cool to be a trombone player in a high school band, and there were scores of music geeks who learned to write and arrange music because of the sketch scores books that they put out showing exactly what they were playing (other than Terry Kath’s solos). The late 70s punk movement made “the f word” an almost accepted part of the vernacular, and kids wanted to dress that way long after the Sex pistols self-destructed (in the truest of punk spirit) and the Clash gave in to commercial pressure and released “Combat Rock.” Heck, for most of us, Bruce Hornsby made being a piano player cool again, kinda like Jerry Lee Lewis and Little Richard and Paul McCartney and Rick Wakeman did before him. There was even a brief spell when the hip-hop scene made people want to wear tons of ugly jewelry and pants with no belt (originally because they took the belt out when you were in jail so you wouldn’t hang yourself). I think it’s safe to say that even Eminem is passe now, and Snoop Dogg is a parody of what he once was to a generation.

    Is this current generation so self-absorbed with iPods and video games and cell phones, and so fractured with Satellite Radio and the extreme segmentation of radio formats, that there’s nobody that they want to follow or be like? Is music and the music culture just not important any more? Who do kids want to be like? This will tell us a lot about how good a job we did or didn’t do raising them.

    Rich

    #27825
    Avatar of DavidRDavidR
    Participant
    Quote:
    Is this current generation so self-absorbed with iPods and video games and cell phones, and so fractured with Satellite Radio and the extreme segmentation of radio formats, that there’s nobody that they want to follow or be like? Is music and the music culture just not important any more? Who do kids want to be like? This will tell us a lot about how good a job we did or didn’t do raising them.

    I think the fragmentation of culture – musical and otherwise – has made it very, very hard to galvanize a majority of society the way it was done before. Technology has allowed us to access infinite amounts of information in realtime, and we can now customize it to our liking. I have a Google homepage with only the headlines and links I want to see. And I’m sure another poster here, should they create a Google homepage, would be vastly different than mine. It’s the same in sports – everyone idolized Mantle, DiMaggio and Babe Ruth. Now there’s so many different players with acclaim and achievement that there isn’t a single unifying sports hero… well, maybe Tiger Woods.

    I think the problem lies with the lack of value placed on music in society by governments, and with the underestimation of children’s ability and attention spans. Exposure is everything. Never mind that there isn’t a band like Chicago to make trombone cool again, a lot of kids never find out what a trombone IS, as music programs are continually cut and underfunded. A couple of years ago at a jazz education conference, I saw a percussion group of “tweens” playing intricate arrangements of “Spain” on various marimbas and drums. It was incredible, and my heart soared at the fact that the kids were truly engaged and appreciated what they were doing – they were playing some heavy $#!% and enjoying themselves! And a couple of days ago, at an NYC jazz jam session, I had the opportunity to play with a thirteen-year-old drummer, who is far more knowledgeable about the current state of jazz than I was at his age. When I was thirteen, I was in my Thelonious Monk/Miles Davis phase. I knew a handful of tunes – I didn’t even know proper “Rhythm Changes”!

    Rich, you mention raising kids. As a youngster myself, I find that parents who are engaged in their children’s pursuits are a minority. Kids are pacified, not stimulated, and are often left to their own devices. A lot of the burden of discipline is being transferred to schools, and it’s not their place, but the parents often can’t be bothered. I recently read Frank Zappa’s testimony at the PMRC hearings, over twenty years ago, and some of it still rings true. If parents are dismayed by what their children are hearing, why not hip them to other forms of music? “Your children have a right to know that something other than pop music exists.”

    And as far as self-absorption goes, it’s not just the kids – I’ve stopped counting how many people have Bluetooth headsets now and walk along the streets looking like they’re talking to themselves.

    David

    #27826
    Avatar of lcf79lcf79
    Participant

    I’ll make this short, sweet and to the point:

    SEX SELLS!!!!!!!! That is the way it is now. Use to be you had to be a good singer (or look like your singing, milli vanilli anyone!) or have long hair and an air guitar. Now if you look good, whether you can sing or not-Ms. Ashlee Simpson on S&L….it’s about your looks.

    Most of the people in music today, artists and record producers/owners would sell their sole to the devil for the right price to make it big for just a bit. Modern “pop” all sounds the same anymore, just slip a male or female voice in there and ya got a “hit”.

    As I said, short and sweet…..thanks and talk at ya later-

    Lee 💡

    #27827
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    Sex has always sold. That’s part of the phenomena of Sinatra and Elvis and The Beatles, just aimed toward the female of the species. What are the “hair metal” rock and roll poses with guitars if not phallic? And how many guys my age bought Carly Simon and Linda Rosntadt albums just because the photos on the jacket were hotter than anything we could buy at the time (since you had to be 18 to get a Playboy, and that was still many years off).

    Rich

    #27828
    Avatar of steve8282steve8282
    Participant

    Things are more fragmented now but there is as much good stuff out there as ever If it is what you want. Pop is pop and the sugary stuff will always outsell the meat,

    Franky Valley ( SP?) outsold John Coltrane in the years hey were both releasing records. Who sold more records in 2006?

    The cream will always rise.

    #27829
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    When I was riding to the grocery store, I heard a song on the radio, which my wife immediately said she hated. So, I kept quite… my problem: In spite of all of the good music that I love, and the diversity of my record/tape/CD/MP3 collection, I have to admit that I have a really bad soft spot for late 60s/early 70s bubblegummy pop. The song on the radio was Elton John & Kiki Dee’s “Don’t Go Breaking My Heart”, which Lisa said was one of the most insipid songs she’d ever heard. My feelings, I sheepishly thought (of course, how DOES a sheep think – I may never know) that it was so disgustingly cute that it was sort of endearing. Then, I was in the supermarket, and The Cowsills’ “The Rain, The Park & Other Things” was on the in-store music, and I caught myself not only humming along with, but knowing the words (gasp!)!! I must admit that I own a copy of “The Archies’ Greatest Hits”, a couple of Partridge Family albums, and a couple of those hits collection albums on the K-Tel label with some absolutely unadulterated crap on them — and I actually like pulling them out every so often and listening to them.

    I feel better. The more I muse about the state of pop music in the 21st Century, and ask questions about where it is or isn’t going, the more the tiny seed of guilt grows in the background. Having come clean, I can now resume my pseudo-highbrow inquiries into where the hell the good stuff is going to come from next.

    My next driving concern? What song should I use for a mash-up that makes fun of some local radio stations? The Kinks’ “Around The Dial”, Reunion’s “Life Is A Rock”, or The Dads’ “Radio 101”? Any thoughts on this?

    Thank you all for your indulgence.

    Rich Diakun

    #27830
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    I’ve been silent on the musical state of the union on purpose. If I would communicate my true feelings, I would be hit by the infamous “banning stick”! ❗

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27831
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    David sayeth unto us: << I've been silent on the musical state of the union on purpose. If I would communicate my true feelings, I would be hit by the infamous "banning stick"! >>

    Not by me. If my guess is right, Si wants this to be as free and open a forum as possible. Personally, I would rather discuss a topic with someone that I don’t agree with (assuming that is the inferred case), because it makes me have to think and try to understand why i think the way I do. Bring it on. We’re all friends in here.

    Rich

    #27832
    Avatar of Si TwiningSi Twining
    Keymaster

    Nobody’s getting poked with the banning stick unless they are spamming the forum with links to pornographic websites! Have your say David..!

    #27833
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    Rich, I couldn’t agree with you more. I don’t even listen to radio anymore. It seems to be a waste of time. All this hoopla about the Grammys, I don’t care to even follow them.
    The musical state of the union?
    The bottom line………..
    It sucks! ❗

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

    #27834
    Avatar of rdiakunrdiakun
    Participant

    Since we’ve looked at this from a couple of directions, let’s try yet another tack on this…

    Is the sad state of music our fault? Before diving all over this, consider that the so-called “baby boom” generation and several subsequent sub-generations are the first ones to whom the combination of technology and disposable income had been available enough to create and support the ungodly behemoth that has become the recording industry. Did we make it too important in our lives? Thus, as we get older, and the next set of generations comes along with other forms of entertainment to distract them, are we seeing the shift of the wave from “music with meaning in our lives” to something else that will take a central place in peoples’ lives? By other forms of entertainment, I include not only television, radio, video games, etc., but the old standards that have kept mankind going long before we had all of this technology: wars and other ways of proving Darwin right, all sorts of religiosity ranging from the quiet and personal to the in-your-face and coercive (if going into THAT realm, even in a seemingly oblique way, doesn’t get the banning stick, nothing will!!!), and even sports (which have taken on an almost religious tone over the past few decades). Anyhow, maybe it’s all a moot point. Music may just be experiencing a swing in the pendulum that will temporarily relegate it to background noise status until a new set of issues and poets and bards come along to swing it the other way. If such is the case, hey… we had a hell of a run, so let’s just enjoy what we hold dear to us and not worry about the poor misguided youth of the world. They’ll find their way in the world just like everyone else has before them.

    I think that pretty much covers another side of this!!! I’d love to hear more thoughts before I consider this dead horse kicked.

    Rich

    #27835
    Avatar of VictorVictor
    Participant

    My two cents

    Thanks for the thought-provoking and complex discussion topic, Rich. Some sharp minds have made a lot of interesting points here. For my knee-jerk reaction to this year’s Grammys, see the “Did He Win?” thread … we do kinda sound like a bunch of grumpy old men, though, don’t we? Now, I’ll take it to a whole new level. Fact is, we’re ALL right. There’s a lot of bad music being played today … and there has always been. The music industry has always been just that, a business, and it will do what it needs to do to generate the most pofitable bottom line.

    In the end, we have only ourselves to blame. Even discriminating consumers such as you’ll find on this board, like to listen to the sweet, schmaltzy, pop stuff now and then. We’ve all been ashamed to find ourselves listening and singing along to some insignificant song at one time or another. We all need escapism occasionally. But for every Ashlee Simpson or Britney Spears out there, there does seem to be a Dave Matthews or John Mayer — those who display significant maturity and integrity as singers/songwriters/musicians. There IS some good music out there if you look for it.

    But is there a meaningful, galvanizing artist out there like Lennon or Dylan, for example? To me, some of the best music ever written was during the tumultuous, war-torn years of the 60s and 70s … songs of protest and pro-humanism. We need this type of art now more than ever. We’ve sat back and allowed a Commander-in-Chief to usurp power from the American people, one who made the masses think it’s OK to allow its government to tap its phones because of a bit of propaganda known as the “Patriot” Act.

    We’ve sat back and watched as our military overextended itself into Iraq based on a lie, and we’ve allowed our own citizens to be washed away in a devastating hurricane. Where are our songs of protest to shock our fragmented society into acts of civil disobedience? Are we to assume, as John Mayer says, that we are too powerless and too apathetic that we should just “Wait for the World to Change”? Are we all too well-fed and economically satiated to want to step up and try to correct this distopia we’re living in? Do we want to continue to live in the Matrix and regularly pop antidepressants to keep us sane?

    I’m of the opinion we badly need leadership — in government, in business, in the arts — that promotes human growth rather than growth in the military/industrial complex. Golf waited for years for its “messiah” in the form of Tiger Woods. We want and need a similarly powerful and dominant figure in the worlds of music and politics. Unfortunately, these iconic figures aren’t easy to come by.

    Bruce has already written prolifically about social injustices; I would challenge him to take a central leadership role in this area: Bruce, make your new lyrics less comical and more bitingly satirical. Make your insights into our world situation less obtuse and more cutting. I heard Bruce sing “Imagine” for the first time on his recent DVD. Why not make that song a regular on the set list? Bruce, why not write your own song of peace and prosperity, inspired by “Imagine,” as you have written “White Wheeled Limousine” and “Fortunate Son” based on inspiration from other artists’ affecting works?

    I just read a quote from Aaron Brown, the former CNN anchor: “It’s not enough to say you want serious news. You have to watch it. It isn’t enough to say you want serious debate. You have to engage in it.” That statement can be extrapolated to all phases of life.

    #27836
    Avatar of VictorVictor
    Participant

    Rant

    Was that a rant??? I ranted, didn’t I? I didn’t mean to rant.

    I’ll step away from the ledge now.

    Carry on.

    #27837
    Avatar of David DayDavid Day
    Participant

    Re: Rant

    Victor wrote:
    Was that a rant??? I ranted, didn’t I? I didn’t mean to rant.

    But it was a good rant! 😆

    David Day
    Lake Lanier, GA

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