Bruce Hornsby setlists, concerts, downloads › Forums › General chat › Musical State Of The Union
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David Day.
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February 27, 2007 at 12:52 pm #27838
Si Twining
KeymasterRe: My two cents
Victor wrote:But for every Ashlee Simpson or Britney Spears out there, there does seem to be a Dave Matthews or John Mayer — those who display significant maturity and integrity as singers/songwriters/musicians. There IS some good music out there if you look for it.Maybe I’m being pedantic, but I don’t agree with the part I’ve highlighted, Vic. I think we’re approaching saturation level here, with what I call “palatable music” being swallowed whole by manufactured nonsense.
Sure the good music is out there, but I think that the noise ratio is far greater than you suggest.
February 28, 2007 at 2:41 am #27839rdiakun
ParticipantNice rant, Victor. It sounds like you needed to get that off of your chest.
I felt the same during the Reagan years about how I wished Robert Lamm would write another “political” song. Lamm is the keyboarist and one of the principal songwriters for Chicago, and has written some very biting lyrics about the state of the world back in the laste 60s and early 70s, esp. “A Song For Richard And His Friends”, “Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?”, “Questions 67 and 68”, “Someday, August 29, 1968”, “While The City Sleeps”, “Something In This City Changes People”, “Harry Truman”, and many others. I thought that success had sent his muse packing to a very nice and luxurious vacation somewhere, and that the 80s were a time where thinking Americans needed what he had once provided very desperately. Instead, he and his band fell under the spell of David Foster and started creating some very lovely “power ballads”, selling lots of copies of such deep political songs as “Hard To Say I’m Sorry”, “Stay The Night” and “Hard Habit To Break.” Thank God U2, REM, Bruce Hornsby, and the Phil Collins album with “Another Day In Paradise” happened to come along when they did — people with brains needed some lyrics to listen to. Lord know, Bobby Lamm took the train to the coast, and part of him left (maybe permanently) when Terry Kath died.
While love songs are awesome and meaningful, we need writers who can make an intelligent and powerful case for making the world a better place. We need the poets and bards and people willing to say “I am your leader, I am your guide” so that people can refind their direction.
Rich
March 1, 2007 at 12:48 am #27840treah
ParticipantRe: My two cents
Victor wrote:But is there a meaningful, galvanizing artist out there like Lennon or Dylan, for example? To me, some of the best music ever written was during the tumultuous, war-torn years of the 60s and 70s … songs of protest and pro-humanism. We need this type of art now more than ever. We’ve sat back and allowed a Commander-in-Chief to usurp power from the American people, one who made the masses think it’s OK to allow its government to tap its phones because of a bit of propaganda known as the “Patriot” Act.
Victor and Rich have touched on some interesting points. After reading their recent posts, I began to wonder, “Did protest songs actually bring about any change?”
I used to wish I had been a young adult when songs like “The Times They Are A-Changin” and “Give Peace A Chance” were popular-when music meant something.
But decades after these songs were written, war and all kinds of prejudice still exist.
Am I being too impatient? Do the seeds this music planted need more time to grow? Music is extremely important to me; I really want to believe it can change the world. I try to put into practice the things I learn from songs like “The Way It Is” and “Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?” But is that enough? I know other people are also listening and acting upon the ideas music such as this creates. When will the time of peace and harmony arrive-or am I hoping for too much too soon?
Jackie
March 1, 2007 at 1:49 am #27841DavidR
ParticipantQuote:But decades after these songs were written, war and all kinds of prejudice still exist.Am I being too impatient? Do the seeds this music planted need more time to grow? Music is extremely important to me; I really want to believe it can change the world. I try to put into practice the things I learn from songs like “The Way It Is” and “Does Anybody Really Know What Time It Is?” But is that enough? I know other people are also listening and acting upon the ideas music such as this creates. When will the time of peace and harmony arrive-or am I hoping for too much too soon?
Two words: Neil Young. I don’t think protest gets much more literal than “Let’s Impeach the President.” There’s always been a bunch of fringe leftist bands: Rage Against the Machine, Michael Franti & Spearhead, many bands involved with the punk/indie scenes in the ’80s. Randy Newman is still writing biting satire and getting a lot of flak for it (“A Few Words In Defense of Our Country?”). Springsteen’s caught some hell as well – anyone remember the controversy over “41 Shots”?
We have to remember that dissent was always relegated to counterculture, and the protest heroes we look to now – Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, Pete Seeger – were not accepted as part of mainstream culture in their time. If you want to find music that is engaged and active, you’re going to have to dig for it, then as now. I find protest has become a lot more subtle and more underground – jazz musician Dave Douglas has written lots of politically inspired music, and the group the Bad Plus has a piece entitled “Cheney Pinata.” We’re starting to see new classical compositions addressing the trauma of 9/11 (John Adams’ On the Transmigration of Souls, for instance). But because of the lack of attention given to jazz music, a lot of it slips under mainstream radar. On the flipside, Natalie Maines from the Dixie Chicks makes an off the cuff remark (it wasn’t even a lyric!) and starts a three-year-long firestorm. And Afrobeat pioneer Fela Kuti was repeatedly imprisoned and beaten for his explicitly anti-government music.
There’s bands like Coldplay, U2 and REM that are active politically outside of their music – the music itself isn’t political. Some of Bob Marley’s music isn’t necessarily protest, but more preaching peace and love, but he’s sort of been misconstrued as this symbol of protest and counterculture. The Black Eyed Peas hit “Where is the Love?” is an incredibly sugarcoated protest song – the first million times I heard it I didn’t even realize. The culturally accepted method of “protest” now is escapism, hence the popularity of fluff like Pussycat Dolls.
I think music can change the world as well – that’s why I’m a musician – but I think it’s only effective on an individual level. If I can reach one or two people per gig musicially, that’s great. I think when bands willingly and intentionally try to create an outright politically-fuelled, galvanizing tune it fails (Antibalas’ “Indictment” comes to mind).
David
March 1, 2007 at 11:57 pm #27842Victor
ParticipantI don’t know, Si …
si_twining wrote:I think we’re approaching saturation level here, with what I call “palatable music” being swallowed whole by manufactured nonsense.I don’t know, Si. I’ve been finding some stuff I like in the alt/ indy / self-publishing realm. Of course almost none of this is getting any radio play, except on maybe NPR.
I’ve seen several people here are into acts like Lucinda Williams and Mary Gauthier, whose “Mercy Now” is great. I’ve mentioned Christine Kane — http://www.ChristineKane.com — on here before; she’s a great singer/songwriter/musician in Asheville.
And there’s a group of three sisters — ages something like 15, 18, and 21 — near where I work who were classically trained musicians who now have their own bluegrass band that just signed with Lyric Street, a Disney label in Nashville. Check the Lovell Sisters out at http://www.lovellsistersband.com. So, so talented. Could be the next Dixie Chicks/ Alison Kraus.
March 2, 2007 at 12:28 am #27843rdiakun
ParticipantOne of the more prophetic lines from a “political song”… Here’s a lyric written in 1975 that fits in 2007….
“They’re building safer cars,
and rocket ships to Mars,
from men who’d sell us out
to get themselves a piece of power…”“Harry Truman”, by Robert Lamm of Chicago
Then, his political muse went on permanent vacation
Rich
PS I think this thread has spawned a couple of ideas for new discussion threads: “political songs” and “guilty pleasures” to name a few.
March 2, 2007 at 12:44 am #27844David Day
Participantrdiakun wrote:PS I think this thread has spawned a couple of ideas for new discussion threads: “political songs” and “guilty pleasures” to name a few.If these guys are the good ones
I don’t want to know the bad
You wonder how it happened
They just picked it up from dad
Defenders, defenders of the flag…..David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 2, 2007 at 8:15 pm #27845Miss Virginia Former
ParticipantMaybe its just cuz I’m a Carolina Girl, but has anybody listened to Ben Folds’ stuff? His piano is good, but he’s young and new at it. Fancy will come with age. His lyrics are haunting one minute, biting the next. I haven’t had a chance to see him in person yet (I don’t think they even LET old people like me into some of those Franklin Street bars in Chapel Hill) but I’ve seen some bootleg video and have a couple of CDs. My fantasy concert could be Bruce, Ben, Ole’ Jerry Lee Lewis, and hey, maybe even Floyd Kramer thrown in for nostalgia. I’ve always been a sucker for a man whose got nimble fingers . . . . . 😉
March 3, 2007 at 1:35 am #27846David Day
ParticipantMiss Virginia Former wrote:I’ve always been a sucker for a man whose got nimble fingers . . . . . 😉I hear that Victor has real nimble fingers after he has been spanked! 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 3, 2007 at 11:13 am #27847steve8282
ParticipantMiss Virginia Former wrote:Maybe its just cuz I’m a Carolina Girl, but has anybody listened to Ben Folds’ stuff? quote]I have a few albums of his and really enjoy them all the way up here in Canada. He’s not bruce on the Piano but He’s Ok and the songs are great with a terrific sense of humour.
Plus he produced William Shatners last album ehat more can you ask!!!
February 26, 2008 at 7:12 am #27848nicos1331
ParticipantRich,
Great topic for a discussion! Kudos to you!
I love a good debate. I apologize in advance if I go off on a rant here but I disgree with your central thesis that, “Nowhere out there is an artist that defines the music of the day, or gives direction or meaning to a generation the way that some have in the past.” Is this thesis is based on the concept that there can be an artist out there who does define the music of the day or gives direction or meaning to a generation, or that some bygone era was somehow better than the current one?
I am skeptical of the idea that that America or the World has ever produced an artist of such caliber. I disagree that Michael Jackson, Madonna, Elvis, Sinatra, Beatles, Goodman, Bee Gees or anyone else somehow defined the music of their day (I am not sure I even know what that phrase means; who is it defining for?). I don’t believe that it would be difficult to find people who, while alive at the time, did not listen to such music nor were they aware of it, or cared that they were not aware of it. Certainly they were not missing out on anything. One can lead a fine musical life without Michael Jackson, Madonna, Elvis, Sinatra, Goodman, Beatles, Bee Gees or any other ‘popular’/’defining’ act. I do not believe that Jackson or Madonna somehow defined (or helped define) the 1980s era, well not for me.
I contend that there can never be too many choices for music.
“There are various “scenes” going on, but nothing that has really been able to take generational ownership.” What does ‘generational ownership’ mean? Which generation are we talking about? What does it mean for them to take ownership of something? What is a ‘sound of a generation’? Can generations even be so classified? What about the people in a generation who never listened to such msuic, where do they fit in?
In my mind, it makes no difference about what is popular or helps to define a generation (which generation; if such a thing is even possible, and I think it’s not). I reconciled myself years ago with the knowledge that there is so much music out there that it is not possible for me to hear all or most or even half of it. I listen to and buy what I like.
For me, music is a beautiful, rich, & complex organism that in a constant state of flux and whose best days have yet to come.
We are all friends in here and let’s keep the debate going. I know my views are usually not in the majority when it comes to just about everything.
Peace and kudos to all posters.
-Nicos
Aside from the actual musical acts, lets not forget all the wonderful composers of lyrics & music, the arrangers, the producers & studio musicians (the late great Nelson Riddle comes to mind for Sinatra’s arrangements). Here is a short roll call of some wonderful composers of music & lyric, arrangers, studio musicians, engineers, & producers: Cahn/Van Heusen, Robert Hunter, Funk Brothers, George & Ira Gershwin, Arlen/Mercer, Brent/Dennis, Rogers/Hart, Tom Marshall, Irving Berlin, Gilbert/Sullivan, Rogers/Hammerstein, Cole Porter, Roger Waters, Rick Rubin, Trent Reznor, Brian Eno, Nile Rogers, Phil Spector, Geroge Martin, Holland/Dozier/Holland, Ashford/Simpson, Teo Maceo, Gil Evans, Tom Dowd (engineer), and on and on. Kudos to their contributions as well. I think someone mention the gifted individuals who started record companies, signed acts, and displayed incredible vision, retraint, & freedom (the late great Ahmet Ertegun comes to mind, along with Jim Stewart, Barry Gordy, Bruce Pavitt/Jonathan Poneman, and many many more). After all, music is a collaborative process and their contributions were enormous.
February 26, 2008 at 3:46 pm #27849rdiakun
ParticipantAlas, a year later, and a fun topic is resurrected. Thanks, Nicos, for a) joining our little forum and b) for helping many of us revisit topics and giving us a new point of view.
What is the “State Of The Musical Union” a year later? Pretty much the same. A lot of artists and composers are working their butts off trying to make art, and some are even successful at it. I found a few interesting diamonds in the rough this year – one of the industry moguls of the day (Timbaland) unearthed a semi-obscure band called OneRepublic, remixed one of their tracks, and turned that sucker into a hit record. That led me to check out their other work, and I discovered some interesting and listenable music. In short, it’s still total dumb luck as to whether or not an artist’s work gets wide exposure. And, also like always, a lot of garbage floated to the top.
The one thing that struck me in the past year was the emergence of one single media and entertainment company as the dominant force in the music marketplace – Disney. And the new star of the day – Billy Ray Cyrus’s kid, playing the role of Hannah Montana.
This movement tends to beg a lot of questions that I don’t have the answer to:
- What will or has this done to the state of the art?[/*:m:fdf43]
- Is it good? Is it bad?[/*:m:fdf43]
- Does it make even the slightest bit of difference that they have eclipsed all of the “traditional” music companies?[/*:m:fdf43]
- Why did the “traditional” music companies get eclipsed? Is it because of online music piracy, the lack of new blockbuster acts, or just sheer lazy marketing on their part?[/*:m:fdf43]
- Does this open up a huge void that new indie music companies are in a position to fill?[/*:m:fdf43]
- Technology has certainly changed the distribution channels for music, and thus the flow of money. WIll it help or hurt the ability of an artist to create music and retain those legal and commercial rights necessary to finance more art creation? Has the old copyright paradigm been rendered obsolete?[/*:m:fdf43]
In short, where are we now? And where are we going?
Heck… am I reading this wrong and I’m just completely ignorant and full of schnitzel? Thoughts? Any and all are welcome. This is always a topic worth discussing.
Rich
February 27, 2008 at 1:25 am #27850David Day
ParticipantA year later, we have Stacked Mary Possum, Un Poco Loco/Chant Song and Camp Meeting!
Life is good!
Have you had your “daily dose” of Stacked Mary Possum today?
: 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAFebruary 27, 2008 at 7:58 pm #27851rdiakun
ParticipantDavid Day wrote:A year later, we have Stacked Mary Possum, Un Poco Loco/Chant Song and Camp Meeting!Life is good!
Have you had your “daily dose” of Stacked Mary Possum today?
: 😆
Well, David, you have a point. I think it’s right on the top of your head 😆
Rich
“Where do we go from here?” – W. Cronkite, 7/20/1969, just after Neil Armstrong first walked on the moon.
February 29, 2008 at 2:24 am #27852David Day
Participantrdiakun wrote:David Day wrote:Have you had your “daily dose” of Stacked Mary Possum today?: 😆
Well, David, you have a point. I think it’s right on the top of your head 😆
Does that mean yes!
: 😆
Have you had your “daily dose” of Stacked Mary Possum today?
: 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 1, 2008 at 9:05 pm #27853rdiakun
ParticipantDavid Day, in his marvelously audacious way, wrote:Have you had your “daily dose” of Stacked Mary Possum today?: 😆
Actually…. yes, I did. And it was tasty as always. Thank you very much for the suggestion.
Rich
“The only thing I hope to never see is another possum in this tree playing possum” – L. Reed
March 3, 2008 at 1:39 am #27854treah
Participantrdiakun wrote:- What will or has this done to the state of the art?[/*:m:9c794]
- Is it good? Is it bad?[/*:m:9c794]
- Does it make even the slightest bit of difference that they have eclipsed all of the “traditional” music companies?[/*:m:9c794]
- Why did the “traditional” music companies get eclipsed? Is it because of online music piracy, the lack of new blockbuster acts, or just sheer lazy marketing on their part?[/*:m:9c794]
- Does this open up a huge void that new indie music companies are in a position to fill?[/*:m:9c794]
- Technology has certainly changed the distribution channels for music, and thus the flow of money. WIll it help or hurt the ability of an artist to create music and retain those legal and commercial rights necessary to finance more art creation? Has the old copyright paradigm been rendered obsolete?[/*:m:9c794]
In short, where are we now? And where are we going?
As usual, Rich, a very thought-provoking topic.
The Hannah Montana craze seems to be a fad, much like the “boy band” music phase several years ago. How will Ms. Cyrus affect the state of the art? Who knows? Some people saw the British Invasion as a fad, yet it had a tremendous impact on popular music. I think the jury is still out on this question.
Is this trend good or bad? Good for Disney and similar companies-bad for smaller record labels and independent musicians.
Does it make a difference that Disney has eclipsed “traditional” music companies? Is there such an animal as a “traditional” music company anymore? Aren’t most of the large, older music labels also owners of video game companies, movie studios, etc? It seems as if the conventional record company that exclusively sells music has gone by the wayside-except for the indie record concerns. Are there many traditional companies left for Disney to eclipse?
If the answer to the last question is “yes,” then I would say the reason Disney eclipsed these firms is “sheer lazy marketing on their part.”
I think independent record companies/musicians have a great chance to fill the need for talented, creative artists who aren’t solely interested in having the #1 iTunes download or the #1 ringtone on the Billboard Hot Ringtone List.
Technology could both help and hurt musicians. An artist can get his/her song heard on YouTube if they have been unsuccessful in getting it heard in the more conventional fashion. However, if the musician doesn’t have the means, time or inclination to protect their music before sharing it on the internet, this could lead to much heartache. When the artists do all they can to protect their music from being stolen, it still happens all too frequently. What can be done to stop this? Would telling family, friends and acquaintances how illegally obtaining music really hurts the musician help? Do stronger measures need to be taken?
This topic has created more questions than answers. But that just makes it all the more interesting!
Jackie
March 3, 2008 at 2:03 am #27855David Day
Participanttreah wrote:This topic has created more questions than answers. But that just makes it all the more interesting!That it is!
Maybe the answer lies in “Questions and Answers”!
You know what I’m talkin about? 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 4, 2008 at 3:50 am #27856rdiakun
Participanttreah wrote:This topic has created more questions than answers. But that just makes it all the more interesting!I’ve thought long and hard about this. I don’t mind thinking long, but at my age, the other is, well… probably protected by HIPAA or something. Nonetheless, I’m working on some sort of pseudo-definitive diatribe on this subject. Unfortunately, I can’t guarantee that it will either make a lick of sense, be meaningful, or even sniff the nether regions of coherency. Nonetheless, it’ll likely have to spawn a new topic (the real reason for putting you all through this agony). I’m sure somewhere in there, I should have to mention that Sheryl Crow is a hideous dancer, but I haven’t figure out how to work that in yet. Maybe the trouser elephant reference will have to make a comeback, but that would mean I’d have to say “How ’bout them Mets?”, so maybe I won’t. Well, as they once said… same bat channel, blah blah blah, et cum spiritu tu… Et renovabis faciem terrae.
Rich
“I’ve suffered for my music — now it’s your turn.” – N. Innes
March 4, 2008 at 5:34 am #27857trent
ParticipantDavid Day wrote:Maybe the answer lies in “Questions and Answers”!You know what I’m talkin about? 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAActually I think you are on to something! That’s the Ornette Coleman tune… I was was watching an interview with Branford Marsalis on a DVD and he was talking about how artists like John Coletrane, Ornette Coleman, and several others would never have made it today in the music business. Their sound was so new that it took 5 years before people caught on. Today almost any band who doesn’t catch on and have commercial hits within the first 6 months of its first album is cut. There is no more artist development period giving talented artists time to grow and build a loyal following.
March 5, 2008 at 1:29 am #27858David Day
Participanttrent wrote:Actually I think you are on to something!Most excellent!
You diagnosed that perfectly! 😆 You are the Country Doctor!
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 5, 2008 at 4:00 pm #27859rdiakun
Participanttrent wrote:Today almost any band who doesn’t catch on and have commercial hits within the first 6 months of its first album is cut. There is no more artist development period giving talented artists time to grow and build a loyal following.This has been true for some time. As the focus of individual radio stations has narrowed, so has the focus (and thus, exposure) of so many listeners. The artist’s lot has become “work for years to put together enough material for a solid album that will have enough hits on it to sustain you, and then try to cram a promotional tour and the writing and recording of an entirely new album into the next year.” The development process is stunted almost from the start, and you end up getting hyper-formulaic second offerings in an effort to recapture whatever it was that you took years to do in the first place.
But,is this all that different from what has been in place all along? How many albums did the Beatles chunk out that were essentially recreations of their first album or what had been their live act going back to the bars in Hamburg? And they sandwiched all of that around endless touring. They were lucky enough to have had enough material to sustain the initial few years of insanity and moved enough product that they could earn the freedom in the studio that so many new artists these days expect from the get-go. It also didn’t hurt that they had a couple of guys who could write a new tune or two in a hurry, although that process changed from a cycle of “write, rehearse, rewrite, rehearse, play live, record’ to “write most of it, work out the arrangement in the studio while sorta rehearsing, record, play live (maybe)”.
Bruce followed a somewhat similar path. The first album (“The Way It Is”) was the product of years of schlepping around trying to get heard and signed. The second album (“Scenes From The Southside”) was a by-product of that in that many of the tunes were probably ready to be recorded when the first album was climbing the charts. Of all of the Bruce Hornsby albums, those two have the most similar sound. “Night On The Town” was different in that the songs sounded like ones that the band had hashed out on the road before going into the studio, and it feels more like a full band album than a Bruce-with-backing-musicians album. If Bruce hadn’t had material for the second album ready or nearly ready when the first one was doing its’ thing on the charts, the third one might never have happened.
For so many artists, it’s the second album that’s the key. I don’t know what the standard is these days, but it used to be that a new act got a 3-album contract. The first one was a roll of the dice and depended a lot on what material was ready and how well the artists acclimated themselves to a studio setting. The second one was often the big payoff album on the contract, and the third one only got promotion if the second album did OK. Unfortunately, if the second album did really well, the third one might have been assumed to not need all the promotion that it might get. Then, if it fell on its’ face for lack of hits or promotion, au revoir band, next…
I can think of a few examples from the 80s.
Mr. Mister’s first album was ok-ish. You could tell that there was something interesting going on, but it wasn’t quite there yet. Their second album, “Welcome To The Real World” was chock-full of hits and sold like a monster. The third album was artistically their best offering, but it didn’t have another “Broken Wings” or “Kyrie” on it, so the record companies didn’t know how to promote it and crossed their fingers that it would do OK because of residual “name” from the previous one. It tanked. They broke up.
The Bangles had a nice run. Their first album was kinda of a knock off of the GoGos, but it had “future promise.” They lived up to the promise on the second album, which had all of their biggest hits. The third album found them stretching artistcally, but only “Eternal Flame” was a hit, and they didn’t get a second contract. They broke up.
A&R development by the record companies seems to have long been just a myth, with the possible exception of a few isolated periods in the mid-to-late 60s or early 80s when a new generation of record execs would be taking over the helm at the companies and wanting to make their mark on the industry before retreating back to the safe confines of formula pop.
Rich
March 5, 2008 at 4:09 pm #27860rdiakun
ParticipantDavid Day wrote:trent wrote:Actually I think you are on to something!Most excellent!
You diagnosed that perfectly! 😆 You are the Country Doctor!
Dave,
Wasn’t that “I think you are on to something” and not “I think you are on something”??
Rich
March 6, 2008 at 1:49 am #27861David Day
Participantrdiakun wrote:Wasn’t that “I think you are on to something” and not “I think you are on something”??That’s halarious! 😆 😆 😆
Whichever way it is, Trent is the Country Doctor!
That’s just the way it is! 😆
David Day
Lake Lanier, GAMarch 6, 2008 at 2:00 am #27862rdiakun
ParticipantDavid Day wrote:Whichever way it is, Trent is the Country Doctor!That’s just the way it is! 😆
Oh, I am going to so not like myself for this, but….
Apparently, it doesn’t matter how you look at it… some things will never change!
Rich
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